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Forum   -   Community chat   -   God - does he exist?
  Locked!God - does he exist?
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Drone
 Posts: 307
Post 1 written Nov 24, 2005 at 13:36
I SAY NO!! HE DON'T!!!


sorry if this is spam but i dont see a spam forum area
the hive calls for you come come find me......and find true meaning of Terror!!!

Moderator
 Posts: 3444
Post 2 written Nov 24, 2005 at 13:41
Modified:  Nov 24, 2005 at 13:41
If anyone wanted to reply seriously to your question they would have to ask you this first:

define God
In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity

Administrator
 Posts: 3057
Post 3 written Nov 24, 2005 at 17:32
Modified:  Nov 24, 2005 at 17:35
i dont see a spam forum area

That's cuz we dun want no spam.

And I don't think your question qualifies as spam, but on the other hand it might not be so well recieved depending... religion and politics are typically not the best things to discuss in online forums.

Personally, I'm more on the agnostic side. I can see there being a creator or creators just as well as I can see the logic in there not being one. I do believe though that if the universe had an intelligent creator, and assuming that creator is still around watching over us, there's probably a very small likeliness that any of earths religions would have the full scope on what he/she is really about.
He who seeks, searches.

Moderator
 Posts: 3444
Post 4 written Nov 24, 2005 at 17:45
Just one reflection on the creator thing - it surprises me that some people say such a complicated and "perfect" universe must have a creator. What about the creator himself?
Why can't the universe exist without the creator, but the creator himself can exist without being created by something else?
This dillema results from one simple fact - people are so used to think in their "Earthly" ways that they ask for things like beginning, creation, what was first and what was second etc. They forget that there is no absolute time, and also that after we go back too far in the history of the universe terms like chronology do not need to have any sense.
In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity

Administrator
 Posts: 3057
Post 5 written Nov 24, 2005 at 19:17
such a complicated and "perfect" universe must have a creator.

Well, personally I look at it the opposite way... the periodic table, laws of physics etc, I think are so very structured, simple and un-complex in their present form that I in many ways feel they would have been a lot more random and complicated in a universe without intelligent design. And that that simplistic nature of things could only be contributed to the poor imagination of a creator.

But, of course, I agree with you that we try to define our surroundings from how we are used to thinking and want to percieve it, rather than for how things actually are.
He who seeks, searches.

Moderator
 Posts: 3444
Post 6 written Nov 24, 2005 at 19:30
Modified:  Nov 24, 2005 at 19:30
And that that simplistic nature of things could only be contributed to the poor imagination of a creator.

Hmmm... that's right on one hand, but it all depends on what we really mean. Many things in the universe are in fact quite complex and complicated, it's just, as you said, the laws of physics that are fairly simple.
I think that this would rather indicate a very smart creator (if we want a creator at all), who would be able to construct all the seen complexity using such simple and basic laws.
You know how it is:

"Perfection is achieved not when there's nothing more to add, but when there's nothing left to take away".
In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity

Administrator
 Posts: 3057
Post 7 written Nov 24, 2005 at 19:40
Well, I definitely don't know as much about the universe as you do so I'm most likely also just coming from an uneducated perspective, but I kinda feel like even though many math formulas (for example) can be quite complex, no matter how far you take it it still kinda stems back to 1+1 if broken down. Even though certain things can contain too many layers for us to comfortable keep in our mind at one time, it still usually is all based on pretty basic and simple building blocks if you get down to the small details, isn't it?

Or perhaps I'm wrong, I'm aware I might not know what the heck I'm talking about. Plus, I'm also not basing any belief in a creator of my own on this argument, I just see the universe as a lot more simple rather then complicated from my own limited point of view.
He who seeks, searches.

Drone
 Posts: 269
Post 8 written Nov 24, 2005 at 20:23
Modified:  Nov 24, 2005 at 20:23
To take it for granted that there is a God is not a good way to set things straight in your own mind. Personally I do believe in God. Not in the conventional flowing white robe and beard sense of things. Trying to humanise God is an insult. For such an imperfect race to prop ourselves up on a pedestal, say we are made in His image... It all smacks of unfounded self-importance.

Why does God need to exist? When people take it on blind faith that He exists they are not giving any justice to miracles that happen every day. God doesn't need to exist, as I don't believe God had any hand in our creation. The proof exists to explain how the earth came to be, how we came to be. If I were to take the conventional religious view on life, we have souls but apes do not. But we are descended from the same life as apes. And so why is it that we suddenly gained a soul? If we need to earn a soul then surely penguins have souls. They are monogamous, care deeply for their family, and are self-sacrificing. Traits that if seen in a human would lead me to believe that person to be inherently good, worthy of a soul above most others.

Basically what I'm trying to put across is that to a large extent conventional religion was organised around a noble, be convoluted idea, and over time was twisted by the organisation that controls it.

Religion is for every person. We are free to choose how to live our lives. A moral code should exist, but not under the threat of eternal damnation. A bad person could spend their life in a padded room and be deemed worthy for heaven. God is often a reason to ignore our own actions. "God has a plan for me". Bullshit. Then why are babies still-born, why do children die before ever having a chance to live? And why would the Christian church say that as a result of their death, before baptism, they go to hell? There are a lot of little things like that which make me think each religion is wrong in some way, and to subscribe to one particular, established point of view is a disservice to the idea that we should try to be the best that we can be. I'll pick and choose from the teachings of history's great minds.

The world's problems are mostly our doing, God won't jump in and help out. He doesn't need to. We need to take responsibility and take the blame. Work on changing things rather than go on our knees and describe our problems, and say what we'd like to be done.


As for the simplicity of our universe, things work better when they are simple. You'll find that the simplest forms of life are the most resilient. Everything is just numbers. You add enough zeroes and it all seems pretty complicated, but really everything is just made up of a lot of numbers. As simple as 123.

The question that will be left when we are gone: Why?

Moderator
 Posts: 3444
Post 9 written Nov 24, 2005 at 20:58
Modified:  Nov 24, 2005 at 21:00
Even though certain things can contain too many layers for us to comfortable keep in our mind at one time, it still usually is all based on pretty basic and simple building blocks if you get down tO the small details, isn't it?

I agree, but it's exactly what I said.
Or at least what I wanted to get across.

Well, I definitely don't know as much about the universe as you do so I'm most likely also just coming from an uneducated perspective

You know how it is - the more you learn the more you understand how little you know.
Comparing to a person who does not work in this field I know more about physics ( and that's good, otherwise why would they pay me for my work? ), but comparing to how much is still left for us to be learned I basically know and understand nothing. I may know more details about some things related to physics, but it doesn't change the fact that we both stand equally amazed by the mystery of the universe.

Cabal, I didn't attack religion in my posts, I hope you didn't have that impression.
I am not a believer in the traditional sense, but I have nothing against religion and religious people. If someone understands God basically as the essence of Nature, or the universe, then I can understand it. If they understand God as something EXTERNAL to the universe I don't understand it, but it's still fine with me.
In fact I don't think that religion and science exclude eachother. Many people think that this is the case, but it's not. The only way in which science "excludes" religion is that if you KNOW something then you don't need to BELIEVE in it. By definition you can only believe in something that you don't know and are not "logically" sure of.
But it's not true that modern science proves that religion is false, at least not its very essence.
Bear in mind that these words come from an atheist.
In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity

CLOSED
 Posts: 384
Post 10 written Nov 24, 2005 at 21:53
               I don't believe in a after life, but it's possible because energy can't be created nor destroyed. I don't believe in a GOD, it's spirturally unnessasary and drives people to unrealistic thinking that leads to violence in my eyes. Looks at the terrorists in Iraq, their driven because they believe in a GOD and a after life, so in addition killing themselfs and killing others doesn't bother them because they think their going to "heaven" with 12 virgins LOL, pathetic! But i do think that their might be a after life, but most likely you won't know about it because you won't feel anything and you won't know who you are and where you came from, so it's just the same as you dieing and pulling the plug. But that's only my opinion and i could be wrong. I do believe in the human that was Jessus, but not believe the jessus who cures people with a touch, or walking on water.


                But like i said i could be wrong. Anyone who believes in a GOD to seek peace and to better they're lifes...i say good for you, but if you seek to solve problem's and for things to happen out of the blue or thinking your doing gods work, your just stupid man lol. And most of the time people believe in a god because someone at birth told them to, but when you grow up and your an adult you need to look at it again and ask yourself, am i a fool? Maybe the real god is you, and you alone
Never Let The Outside In.

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